Making the best use of time on Syndicate piers

For me it's about getting the BEST data possible. I have my own equipment in the garden that I use along side here, but I'm in Bortle 5/6 area. My personal main reason for joining this syndicate (P14) was to get better data. Better equipment, darker skies, longer integration to generate a better image.

So, a) takes my vote out of the two above. I'd rather have half as many jobs with twice as much data per job? If that makes sense. (Within reason, 1 job with 400 hours is maybe a little excessive lol)

Phil

Hi Phil, 

Thanks for the swift reply.

What you prefer, longer integration time for better data, is what I'm fairly sure most others do too, including myself. Therein may lie a problem.

This question really only relates to pier 3 right now. Have a look at the pier 3 queue and you may see why I posed the question. I'd advise you Phil to not read any further, it makes hard reading. :) 

You submit your job early and Telescopius says there are many more months during which it can be imaged and all those hours can easily be captured. However, after a reasonable amount of integration time has been captured it sits there as other jobs take priority. This occurs most frequently during long spells of bad weather or potentially manual interventions, when upon resumption the job you submitted is no longer in part of the sky now being imaged as a priority. The onus should be on the person who submitted that incomplete job to let the roboscopes team know, in order that this can be remedied.

However, every action has a reaction, therefore the act of roboscopes prioritising that job may have an impact on the jobs it would have been doing. You submit your job early and Telescopius says..... See previous paragraph. 

Having lots of jobs, as is the case on pier 3 right now, will most likely result in those incomplete jobs. Every incomplete job is just as much a waste of resources as is a pier being idle for the odd hour or two due to the lack of jobs. I apologise for not making that part clearer. 

If you investigate you'll find that others organise syndicate jobs in different ways. Nowhere near as flexible as here, but maybe there just needs to be more control. 

Cheers, 

Ray 

Very interesting Ray

Option - 1

In our opinion the best way to run a syndicate is for members on the 1st January (or whatever set date) suggest a list of jobs for the whole year for the pier to do which they all discuss and agree upon whilst leaving some head room, as new members join thought the year they may suggest some extra jobs that could go in

Members

* need to monitor pier productivity and let us know if something needs removing, altering etc
* be aware of Wet seasons which in turn cause low productivity periods
* communicate and work as a team rather than individuals
* Actually do a list and agree upon things moving forward :)
* Members need to decide how the wish to use the pier
1, Less, longer high quality datasets
2, lots of standard length datasets
3, a combination of the above

Options - 2

Alternatively you could do this…

Most people who I advise behind the scenes especially with hosting I recommend running a pier this way and for those that follow the guide it seems to work well!

1. 5/8 current jobs spaced around the sky to utilise moon avoidance better across the month*
2. 2/3 late risers after 3am
3. 2 dawn risers
4. 2 risers 2/3 hours after dawn
5. So on and so forth as the season progresses

This list obviously needs adjusting as jobs get finished and the sky rotates, You simply feed more into  sections 2, 3 & 4. Also during clear weather periods you can at times add extra jobs just because we have spare clear skies.

W also recommend that they keep the jobs shorter during our wet seasons as the atmospherics at that time of year means that the jobs need to be blinked more thoroughly plus it means you can re-input as and if required more readily. Little and often works

There is not an exact optimum amount of jobs that a pier runs best at using our software but members have never quite found a good balance, pier-5 for example was simply running on empty for months with almost zero to do whilst pier-3 has more jobs in the queue that it can realistically manage. However, 12-18 jobs at any one time using my philosophy above seems like a good place to start

*You also need to be aware if your pier is OSC or mono, as OSC piers on the whole collect data much faster than mono piers obviously, so OSC systems would defiantly work at the higher end :)

When Chile comes online we will run the piers slightly differently for that location

When you join a syndicate, members will be required to submit a list of targets they would like to image that year and where possible they will be added to the list for that year, we won’t be repeating the same object three times a year as new members join. New members will be given the opportunity to download a previous dataset from that year at a discounted rate if they want it. Roboscopes will also be calculating how much data is needed to create a very high quality dataset and and putting the correct length of subs for each object, then inputting that into the system, So members will receive the best version of the data possible.

We have not finalised all the details yet and are still working things out but our experience of syndicates in Spain has taught us many things.

* Members on the whole want to work alone but like to enjoy the discounted price of a syndicate, it’s very difficult to get them to work as a team because they want to image just what they want to image (understandable as its human nature)
* Members are not always brilliant at forward planning
* Members tend to not use the whole sky for imaging and just stick to certain areas
* Members tend to either take, not enough data, to much or they get the balance of filters wrong which wastes pier resources, we are hoping all the tools Manuel is building behind the scenes at the moment will very much help with this. Fingers crossed on this one

So as far as Chile goes we want to be more team based with a lot more Roboscopes input to help get the best out of a pier.

If any members have suggestions or a good idea please let us know, as all ideas are very welcome. Despite our ability to run piers we are still learning what’s best for customers and we wish to give them the best experience possible.

Last point, remember at all times there is no cheaper way to gather lots of data from a dark site than via a syndicate membership, it has it’s foibles obviously but paying Hourly is considerably more expensive and hosting is a whole other league expense wise My suggestions above may just help to make the all ready low syndicate prices even better value for money as they become more productive and balanced towards your goals as a “team” :)

Most of above points we have said previously many times in many threads on the forum over the years

Steve

Steve, 

Yes, yes and yes. 

You may have read my mind as I was intending to ask later how the site in Chile, where Syndicate prices will be substantially higher, will be run. What you've described is pretty well what I'd been hoping for. Leading on from what is planned for there, maybe there could be a way of introducing a similar 'discipline' at the site in Spain. 

Chile is likely to be some time off so ideas on running the site I understand are not yet cast in stone, but for now just an observation or two on what you've mentioned. 

With a likelihood there's a lack of knowledge of the Southern hemisphere on the part of current members who wish to join a Chile syndicate, perhaps asking for a list of targets for the year might not be the best way forward. Asking for suggestions on a quarterly basis allows for incomplete jobs to be carried forward to the next quarter if necessary. More importantly it gives members more time to evaluate what's going to be visible during a shorter period. 

Also, if an option to pay for access to jobs completed prior to a new member joining is made available, I'd hope that no target be repeated within a year given the vast number of new targets that will be available to us. (Kids in a Sweet shop springs to mind.) Besides those that are exclusively Southern targets, there are also some that are just accessible from Spain, but would yield better results from Chile, the Helix to name but one. 

Hope you don't mind me commenting, and thanks again for your earlier reply. 

Cheers, 

Ray 

Steve, 

Yes, yes and yes. 

You may have read my mind as I was intending to ask later how the site in Chile, where Syndicate prices will be substantially higher, will be run. What you've described is pretty well what I'd been hoping for. Leading on from what is planned for there, maybe there could be a way of introducing a similar 'discipline' at the site in Spain. 

Chile is likely to be some time off so ideas on running the site I understand are not yet cast in stone, but for now just an observation or two on what you've mentioned. 

With a likelihood there's a lack of knowledge of the Southern hemisphere on the part of current members who wish to join a Chile syndicate, perhaps asking for a list of targets for the year might not be the best way forward. Asking for suggestions on a quarterly basis allows for incomplete jobs to be carried forward to the next quarter if necessary. More importantly it gives members more time to evaluate what's going to be visible during a shorter period. 

Also, if an option to pay for access to jobs completed prior to a new member joining is made available, I'd hope that no target be repeated within a year given the vast number of new targets that will be available to us. (Kids in a Sweet shop springs to mind.) Besides those that are exclusively Southern targets, there are also some that are just accessible from Spain, but would yield better results from Chile, the Helix to name but one. 

Hope you don't mind me commenting, and thanks again for your earlier reply. 

Cheers, 

Ray 

 

Agreed, there is lots to do and sort re Chile but Pete is part way through the 20" build so that wont be long and we hope to have 2/3 up and running before June and 3/4 before the end of the year. The only downside for Chile is going to be the price although if enough members show interest in a particular pier this will help bring the cost down for all. We may also make Chile a monthly rather than yearly payment in order to help spread the cost for members.

Re targets, the Horizon rules for Spain syndicates are now implemented and in the future are not being broken for lower than normal jobs requested by members, we learnt that lesson of being flexible for customers sometimes bites you on the butt later! So low targets below certain horizons will not be possible.

For example

• Pier-1 imaging horizon of 30º
• Pier-2 imaging horizon of 30º
• Pier-3 imaging horizon of 30º
• Pier-5 imaging horizon of 25º
• Pier-14 imaging horizon of 25º

When our new behind the scenes scripted automation comes in the play at the end of February, syndicate member jobs will be input using a downloadable script to remove user input error on Roboscopes part and speed things up for Pete, fortunately this means that the rules we have in place for horizons will become hard and fast

As for implementing the "Chile" system into Spain, whilst we are all for this, there needs to be 100% existing customer agreement as not all may want the new system

We will be making available & selling qualified data sets from both north and southern hemisphere sometime in the future, I will keep you posted on this.

The Helix you say, this is an awkward object as in reality it does get high enough for many piers in Spain and whilst I agree 100% its better imaged from the southern hemisphere not every member of Roboscopes will have southern syndicate, so it may from time to time still get images from Spain I would say :)

PS I have not forgotten your ticket and once I have a spare moment it will get to the top of my queue!

Steve, 

Yes, yes and yes. 

You may have read my mind as I was intending to ask later how the site in Chile, where Syndicate prices will be substantially higher, will be run. What you've described is pretty well what I'd been hoping for. Leading on from what is planned for there, maybe there could be a way of introducing a similar 'discipline' at the site in Spain. 

Chile is likely to be some time off so ideas on running the site I understand are not yet cast in stone, but for now just an observation or two on what you've mentioned. 

With a likelihood there's a lack of knowledge of the Southern hemisphere on the part of current members who wish to join a Chile syndicate, perhaps asking for a list of targets for the year might not be the best way forward. Asking for suggestions on a quarterly basis allows for incomplete jobs to be carried forward to the next quarter if necessary. More importantly it gives members more time to evaluate what's going to be visible during a shorter period. 

Also, if an option to pay for access to jobs completed prior to a new member joining is made available, I'd hope that no target be repeated within a year given the vast number of new targets that will be available to us. (Kids in a Sweet shop springs to mind.) Besides those that are exclusively Southern targets, there are also some that are just accessible from Spain, but would yield better results from Chile, the Helix to name but one. 

Hope you don't mind me commenting, and thanks again for your earlier reply. 

Cheers, 

Ray 

 

 

Re Chile and object knowledge, yes user suggestions etc will be most welcome obviously and "projected quarterly" suggestions for the following quarter sounds like it may be a good idea, I will think on that :)

As a new Pier 3 syndicate member, I guess I am at least partially responsible ;-) My preference is definitely for quality data - the quantity will largely look after itself (weather permitting).

I actually have two imaging rigs at home, but use is very limited as I live in Cumbria and have B6 skies which are worse to the south where I would want to image. Add the NW UK weather and generally poor seeing to this, plus the fact there is no real darkness for 4 months of the year my imaging time is limited.

One thing I would suggest is trying to formalise the naming. Where there are multiple names for the same object it is very easy to accidentally duplicate requests. (For example objects with NGC, Abell, Sharpless.......etc). I'm not sure how this would be done - is there any way of creating a visualisation of the pier requests?

Personally, I am not too bothered if the number of requests is slightly limited. Other members are likely to come up with new and interesting targets that I have not considered.

Cheers,

Ian

As a new Pier 3 syndicate member, I guess I am at least partially responsible ;-) My preference is definitely for quality data - the quantity will largely look after itself (weather permitting).

I actually have two imaging rigs at home, but use is very limited as I live in Cumbria and have B6 skies which are worse to the south where I would want to image. Add the NW UK weather and generally poor seeing to this, plus the fact there is no real darkness for 4 months of the year my imaging time is limited.

One thing I would suggest is trying to formalise the naming. Where there are multiple names for the same object it is very easy to accidentally duplicate requests. (For example objects with NGC, Abell, Sharpless.......etc). I'm not sure how this would be done - is there any way of creating a visualisation of the pier requests?

Personally, I am not too bothered if the number of requests is slightly limited. Other members are likely to come up with new and interesting targets that I have not considered.

Cheers,

Ian

Naming is all part of the new system that's being put in place, all you need to do is use the search icon :)

The good old North West, the English home of dark skies with the added bonus of extra cloud and rain :)

I am enjoying this thread and I hope it leads to a member job suggestion page where we can input a series of job requests using our knowledge for what constitutes a quality data set, sub lengths, filters, duration etc

May I ask what you think about us "Roboscopes" getting more involved with helping to pick objects and input them so you get better datasets ?

Steve

I will endeavour to use the search function to give the different object names.

With regards to Roboscopes putting forward suggestions and helping with the input, I have no problem with that. I tend to get more subs than maybe necessary, as it is easier than requesting additional data later. With my own kit this is fair enough, but on the syndicate scopes it is potentially taking imaging time from someone else. As I said above, other members data sets or suggestions is fine with me - it will potentially broaden my imaging horizons. Also, if it helps better utilise the time available, even better.

Ian

I will endeavour to use the search function to give the different object names.

 

With regards to Roboscopes putting forward suggestions and helping with the input, I have no problem with that. I tend to get more subs than maybe necessary, as it is easier than requesting additional data later. With my own kit this is fair enough, but on the syndicate scopes it is potentially taking imaging time from someone else. As I said above, other members data sets or suggestions is fine with me - it will potentially broaden my imaging horizons. Also, if it helps better utilise the time available, even better.

Ian

Honest/y, for 7/9 months of the year, use our calculator and add the correct amount for sub filter weighting. The only caveat to this is how long to exposure for and individual sub lengths in order to get the best possible data set before the law of diminishing returns comes in effect.

We have a few new tools coming on board to help with this, Manuel is still in test ant analysis mode at present but suffices to say you will be very much impressed as it will really help maximise imaging time without wasting time taking far to much on any one filter

3/5 months of the year during Europes more unpredictable seasons

Request smaller data sets, get them back and check them as you can always put in for more as and if required, these are not the times for 20/30 hour epic jobs. keep them small and put them in a couple of times if need be

Anything for job suggestions is always welcome, it helps us to help you :)

One last thing, use the notes section on the job input page, all members can read it and see what the job is or any special reasons, if the object has alternative names, its also a good place to put that, information is king and helps all members :)

After a couple of months being a Pier 3 member I started keeping my request around 5 hours or less. Even 7 hour request are taking too long to complete because of the weather. I also started separating Lum, RGB, and Narrowband into separate request. I will processes what data I get and then decide what channel needs more time.

Daniel

After a couple of months being a Pier 3 member I started keeping my request around 5 hours or less. Even 7 hour request are taking too long to complete because of the weather. I also started separating Lum, RGB, and Narrowband into separate request. I will processes what data I get and then decide what channel needs more time.

Daniel

Daniel that's a prudent idea during wet season I have to say, however its not just the weather, when a pier has almost 50 jobs totalling 350 hours of imaging time to do its unrealistic to expect it to get much done as it simply has to much work to complete

Although at present we do have a very good forecast the next few weeks which is most unusual for December so fingers crossed we get through some of the the backlog

Steve